D 5505 Real cold starting in Canada

[evranch_canada]

Hello Deutz fans! I'm back to working on my tractors, hope everyone had a good Christmas.

So I mounted a skid steer adapter on my D5505 which means now I can use it with my snow removal equipment. And it took awhile, but it finally snowed. And it got COLD, it's been -40C for the last couple days. All day, too!

There is no point trying to start a diesel in this weather or abuse any tractor. I'm just sitting and looking at the snow and waiting for the weather to warm up so I can plow it.


However, I did try to get the D5505 started in "warmer" weather a couple weeks ago, -15C air temperature with the block at around -20C. It did not go nearly as well as the old video that was shared showing a demonstration at supposedly -30C.

- First the battery which was a good 1000CCA rated battery turned out to not have enough power in the cold, barely turning the motor. I had previously redone all cable ends and connections. I double checked all connections and then connected my large charger to add power. It still took a while to pump oil and build any speed. Did these have a pair of 6V or some other very large battery originally? Is this starter rated for long cranking periods, as you sometimes find on old diesels where you simply keep cranking until it starts? How long is too long to crank?

- New Bosch glows worked great at -5C and afterglow cleaned up the smoke fast. However, I could barely get white smoke to puff at -15C even after a minute of glow. I tried multiple times, then let the glows cool off, started with a shot of starting fluid, then afterglow to keep it running. It took quite a bit of glow time to build any RPM as it was only barely firing even with the governor wide open, until it finally caught. Very weak start. Not sure why the starting fluid was required as fuel is sprayed directly onto red hot glows.

- White smoke never did clean up as the heads never warmed up. I idled for a bit, I climbed the driveway hill, the blast of -15C air just kept the heads as cold as ice! There was also some odd popping/misfiring sounds going on that would go away if I ran the glow plugs. Clearly the heads are just too cold... do I need to restrict the airflow somehow to run at these temperatures?


There is no block heater, but should I be using an oil pan heater and battery blanket? The battery blanket is probably a good idea anyways, I use them on most of my tractors. To be a usable tractor in winter here, it needs to start not just at -15C but as low as -30C in an emergency.


I am thinking for that demo they probably connected a nice warm battery and dumped in a pail of hot oil behind the scenes... it turns over far too smoothly to have spent the night in that freezer without some help.

 

[niedersasse]

Hello,

in military use of Deutz engines they mounted a battery cage heating and a fitting for an external heating in the engine, where the fresh air for the engine gets in.

So it is possible to start even in times of very cold temperatures.
This was an experience of the last world war.
How to use it is written in the user manual of these trucks with Deutz engines.

You can see it at the photo (I bought it with the truck from a guy, who builds fire trucks) below, the red crossed handling screw, which you can open.
The heating heats up the complete engine by the pipes you can see, too.
The heating is to fix with some more pipes in front of the engine and the air runs in a circle through the engine.
The air gets out on top in the middle of the engine near drivers cabin (hardly to see).
It isn't necessary to open the engines housing.

Btw: the engine is a F12 L 714

To my mind an older engine has always problems with starting in very cold weather, so that you might be right in thinking they used some tricks.

On the other hand I tried to start my 10006 after an engine revision at -25 C without glowing and it started at once without smoking blue or white.
But it is an engine with direct injection.

Best regards

Richard

 

[evranch_canada]

Very interesting! Can you tell me the model number of this truck or where to find the manual, it would be interesting to see this system in more detail.

It looks like they are heating the intake air during operation just by running a simple pipe past the cooling exhaust? Is this also disabled with the screw during warm weather or are the pipes reconfigured for the season?

By external heating, do you mean electric heating of the intake air on start, like the famous "hairdryer method" used on DX series? And are they also heating the cooling air chamber the same way, or only the intake air?

I have also considered if a modern electric fan could replace the cooling fan on D5505, to allow speed control and actual temperature regulation. I think the DX160 simply needs too much cooling for that.

I will put a battery heater on the D5505 right away, more battery power is always helpful.

To get a direct injection engine to start at -25C you must have had very good cranking speed! Freshly charged battery and maybe lighter oil? My DX160, also with a 912, is not happy to start much below freezing without some sort of help. It will make a lot of white smoke. But it has not been rebuilt ever, and was badly abused by the previous owner. Nor has its valves ever been adjusted... now that I know the specs from this forum, I should do them this year.

I never change to lighter oil as temperatures can fluctuate so rapidly here that it's a waste of time and oil.

 

[niedersasse]

Hello,

the truck is a FAUN 912 5050 A.

Specs or manuals are rarely to find in the net.

But give me some time, I try to get some more photos or drawings to show the funktion.

The general principle in working of the heating is simple:

You have to heat up the engine before starting. The heating works on Otto gas or diesel.

It looks like here: Bundeswehr Schwingfeuerheizung Benzin Unimog | eBay

The heating heats up only the incoming air.

For the battery cage there is mounted a seperate Webasto (this company still exists) heating working on 24V. There are two blocks with 200 Ah each. It works by the diesel, which is used for the engine, too.

The cooling air can't be heated up.
The fan is triggered by a thermostate mounted in the exausting pipe near the engine.

Best regards

Richard

 

[evranch_canada]

Of course, that makes sense on a military vehicle to heat with gasoline and not electricity, as the vehicle could be located anywhere.

Hmm, that item looks suspiciously similar to this thing that I have in my scrap pile, the auxiliary gasoline heater out of an old Volkswagen. Never considered that it could be used for an intake air preheater but... it would definitely put out a lot more heat than a hairdryer and is more portable! Though mine is in rough shape and likely a fire hazard.

I have used a hairdryer down the intake to help start the DX160 many times, but the D5505 doesn't have the appropriately shaped pipe to do so maybe I should make an adapter for it and start there.

I'm familiar with Webasto heaters, commonly used to heat truck and tractor cabs here in Canada, and to preheat liquid-cooled truck engines where they can't be plugged in. Again, I've never seen them in a battery heating application, but in a military application it makes sense to burn small amounts of diesel to keep the batteries warm.

There are also these cheap 12v diesel air heating units that could be strapped to the side of the tractor, and probably used in the same intake air heating application: NEW 8 KW DIESEL AIR HEATER & REMOTE 12V S1126 – Uncle Wiener's Wholesale

 

[krammerreini]

Hello Alex,

I've got a spare parts list from a Magirus Deutz Jupiter 6x6 in military version. There are drawings of intake air heating equipment. I don't know, if this is comparable with the system of Richard's Faun. And don't ask me how it works.
Look at the pictures.


Best regards
Reini

 

[niedersasse]

Hello,

the system works in the same way, only the additional pipes are to short, because my FAUN has 4 cylinders more.

Regards

Richard

 

[evranch_canada]

Thanks Reini! That gives the detail I was looking for, it's a coaxial heat exchanger and it appears to have a thermostat that will mix ambient air to avoid overheating the air in warmer temperatures.

While the flame heater can get it started, this is the system that will keep it running. It should be fairly simple to build something like this from exhaust pipe.

A primitive version of this can be found on carbureted gas engines here, but it is designed to shut off quickly after startup and serves only to help vaporize gasoline when running with the choke on. We call it the "heat stove".

Something I still am not clear on from your original comment, Richard:

The heating heats up the complete engine by the pipes you can see, too.
The heating is to fix with some more pipes in front of the engine and the air runs in a circle through the engine.
The air gets out on top in the middle of the engine near drivers cabin (hardly to see).

Does this mean there are also air shutters for the cooling air to restrict its flow or allow it to circulate? Or were you referring to this combustion air system?
I know some Deutz of this era had an option to duct cooling air to heat the cabin.

Maybe Reini can clarify with the parts manual if there is anything being done to restrict cooling air. I still feel like it can't be good for the engine to run such a massive temperature differential across the cylinder walls, and to cool the oil so much that it is nearly solid!

Thanks to both of you,
Alex

 

[niedersasse]

Hello,

this external system is only for heating up the the intake air for running the engine.

The intake air circulates in the pipes above and below the exausting pipes.

This heating system has no influence on the temperature of the cooling air.

The fan in the cooling system of a 714 engine is managed by a themostate, which switches the fan on or off.
That is one of the differences between a 614 with a permanent fan and a 714 engine.
The x12 engines in the tractors also have a permanent fan.
The airstream is much heavier.

You are right, there can be a massive difference in temperature between the cooling air and the hot cylinders.

Attached a photo of a 614 engine with a permanent fan.
Sorry, that I can't show you some details of the cooling fan of a 714engine, I'm working on my smartphone and I haven't the manuals with me.

Regards

Richard

 

[evranch_canada]

Ah, I see that is what you meant by

The fan is triggered by a thermostate mounted in the exausting pipe near the engine.

The main cooling fan cycles on and off. This would make all the difference.

I have only seen Deutz engines on tractors and they have always had a permanent fan, probably because they expect to be working hard in summer.

I'm guessing the 714 fan is shaft driven with a clutch as electric fans of the era were quite weak. I've considered before whether a modern electric radiator fan from a truck could be used to replace the D5505 fan as it is only 50HP.

Or simply supplement it, by removing the belt from the main fan in the winter, and locating the electric fan in front of it behind the grille.

Alex

 

[niedersasse]

Hello,

in former times trucks have had blankets for the engine housing.

In other cases like watercooled engines they have had jalousies for example made by MAN.

In drivers cabin you could find a wire to open or close the jalousie.

Regards

Richard

 

[niedersasse]

Hello,

I´ve remembered I have to deliver a description of a military engine heating, especially for Deutz engines.
On the photo are to be seen the openings for the pipes.

Here you are:

Best regards

Richard

 

[evranch_canada]

Thank you very much Richard for remembering me and my frozen tractor! It is now +10C this week, easy to start diesels, nice weather to work on transmissions and such. This is why we don't change oil weight due to temperature here...

This is a interesting schematic. I looked up the "Eberspacher Schwingfeurheizgerat" and it is an even more interesting device! Like a tiny pulse jet engine.

for those who have not seen it in action.

So the exhaust of this heater goes directly into the intake manifold like a very powerful flame plug? Or is air only drawn past the outside of the glowing exhaust pipe? Either way, lots of heat is available!

I have to admit that while I don't need this particular ancient preheating device, for some reason I find myself wanting to own one. Very different from anything I have seen here.

Alex

 

[kessler]

Hi Alex,

i found an interesting PDF concerning the Eberspächer Schwingfeuer ( unfortunately only in german ) but the pictures are helpful how it works. I know this machines from historic exhibitions and they can be adjusted for a handful of uses like heating up an air intake ( directly in the suction pipe or from outside ), a water tank or even a tent ( by special safety measures ).

I remember that they have been selled off cheap for like 150 € beause no one needs them anymore. Today, historic enthusiats are willed to pay 500 for a working one


best regards to canada!

Jonas